Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 8:02 am Заголовок сообщения: Restructured Model A (Измененная структуру Модель А)
Hello, I'm English, so I'm gonna write this in English first. I came across an a model recently that made me rethink how socionics works. Its a model that uses the polarities or positive and negative aspects of information elements. This model made perfect sense to me. And I've since created some hypothesis off of it.
I created this complete Model A model for each type
This image demonstrates my thesis on how this model works. According to information metabolism.
I basically believe that there are different subtypes based off of the way these polar information elements work. For Example an LII could be a + subtype.
Is there anywhere that you can tell me that I can research this information, for I am very much interested in finding it.
Здравствулте!, я английский, поэтому я буду gonna пишу это на английском языке сперва. Я пришел через модель недавн сделала меня переосмыслить как socionics работает. Сво модель использует полярности или положительные и отрицательные аспекты элементов информации. Эта модель сделала совершенное чувство к мне. И я имею с создал некоторое предположение его. Я создал эту вполне модель а модели для каждого типа
Это изображение демонстрирует мой тезис на как эта модель работает. Согласно метаболизму информации.
Я основно верю что будут по-разному подвиды основанные дороги работа этих приполюсная элементов информации. Например LII смогло быть а + [?? ] подвид. Где-либо что вы можете сказать мне что я могу исследовать эту информацию, потому что меня будьте very much заинтересован в находить ее.
Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 10:00 am Заголовок сообщения:
Looking at the model I can not make sense of it by just what you have said. But I understand that different polarities make sense. My Butterfly model is based on the same principle. I write and explain functions like this for LII:
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Not sure why the picture does not come out as butterfly shape
I have not read about Model K, please, give the website. Try to explain in words how this model works for you beecause pictures do not make sense for me. We can analyse the model K together. People on this forum are a bit conservative about everything new. _________________
Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 10:19 am Заголовок сообщения:
Basically what I'm saying that the functions of a type consist of both an introverted and an extroverted element. The I in LII isn't truly correct because LII are not all introverts. For LIIs, the base function is - /+ . This would it so that their dominant function is similar to that of an ESTj. The second model is how the information metabolism portion of it works. Data must go to an extroverted function to be able to be communicated and receptive to the world's information. Now my quadrants work like this. In the Originals quadrant, you have LII, ILE, IEI, EIE. They all have at least a partial - agenda. This means that all of these types have a need to attempt to overthrow authority. Having - in the agenda blocks mean that + is in the ego block. + is a function of originality, creativity.
Now taking LIIs for example, you could have 4 subtypes based on the model (there could be more based on different reasons). You could have a - subtype, a + subtype, a + subtype, and a - subtype.
Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 10:47 am Заголовок сообщения:
The group division seems to be Ok. However, a few questions come to my mind.
It seems to me that negativity- positivity is havy loaded as it creates the basis for the devision into groups. I have never thought that this polarity is so important.But if it is in reality so important what sense does it make - I can't see it, do you?
For me negativity -positivity dichotomy is the two sides of one coin. For example, you would expect originals to be imaginative and Doers to be interested in experience. You would expect systemizers also to be controllers and Peacefuls to be depressive. I do not want to say that there is nothing there, but I do not see the bigger picture right now.
Ok I will try to think bigger. It is mainly about rationality and irrationality dichotomy - this makes sense. If you want to see the difference between the types from this perspective then you can say that if you wish to differentiate from rationals then there are different qualities which belong to this dichotimy.
Irrationals have got the qualities of being original and imaginative or active in doing something and experiencing. Rationals like to systemize and control on one hand and are relationship orientated and moody at times.
And this is how rationality and irrationality is distributed smoothly between the types. For example, LII is original and creative in systemising. ILI is controlling and imaginative. If you confused about your type look at the difference between those qualities and decide about the type.
Originality though is very similar inmeaning to imagination - that could be a bit of a problem. In the same way like Doers and Experiences. So the Model K does not work very well at the fine level of differentiating between types.
However it may work on the more genetral level. For example, we do not know if the person is logical or ethical. Then we ask what does characterise him: is he controller and creative in systemising or he is more concerned about the peace in relationship and his mood? Is he either imaginative and has lots of original ideas or he condiders himself to be an action person and enjoys diversity of experiences.
I think this may work because the differences quite clear.
About quadras of the model K I can not make any sense at the moment. _________________
Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 11:03 am Заголовок сообщения:
hitta писал(а):
Basically what I'm saying that the functions of a type consist of both an introverted and an extroverted element. The I in LII isn't truly correct because LII are not all introverts. For LIIs, the base function is - /+ . This would it so that their dominant function is similar to that of an ESTj. The second model is how the information metabolism portion of it works. Data must go to an extroverted function to be able to be communicated and receptive to the world's information. Now my quadrants work like this. In the Originals quadrant, you have LII, ILE, IEI, EIE. They all have at least a partial - agenda. This means that all of these types have a need to attempt to overthrow authority. Having - in the agenda blocks mean that + is in the ego block. + is a function of originality, creativity.
Now taking LIIs for example, you could have 4 subtypes based on the model (there could be more based on different reasons). You could have a - subtype, a + subtype, a + subtype, and a - subtype.
I like your idea about different subtypes. I does correspond to the model of Talanov, who has found the different subtypes by experiments. I just do not get it how the model K comes to it or how you made this conclusion about the possibility of being different subtypes. I do not see the objective laws well enough and what is obvious for you is not obvious for me. Is is because of the quadrants? I need to have a proper look. _________________
Добавлено: Вт Авг 21, 2007 11:49 am Заголовок сообщения:
The thing though is that there is an obvious similarity between the types in each of my quadrants. The names of each quadrant is based on functional description. When I said k in the previous post, I didn't mean model K, I meant k as in ok. We had a miscommunication in wording
Ok, I see this is your model.
You say: there is an obvious similarity between the four types in each quadrant. Shall we have a proper look at each of the quadrant. WE can start with the first one: LII, ILE, EIE and IEI. What is an obvious similarity here and how you interpret originality because you call this group original?
Do not be surprised that I ask something you have already explained - it did not reach me yet. You can repeat things in a sligtly different way and hopefully I will anderstand you better.
Did you show this on the English forum as well? What were the comments if this is not a secret? _________________
Ok, I see this is your model.
You say: there is an obvious similarity between the four types in each quadrant. Shall we have a proper look at each of the quadrant. WE can start with the first one: LII, ILE, EIE and IEI. What is an obvious similarity here and how you interpret originality because you call this group original?
Do not be surprised that I ask something you have already explained - it did not reach me yet. You can repeat things in a sligtly different way and hopefully I will anderstand you better.
Did you show this on the English forum as well? What were the comments if this is not a secret?
- means that the types have a need to overthrow authority. + is the function of originality, they share both functions, they combine together to mean that they have a need to go against the norms of society.
It may be interesting and usueful information. I need to find some of my notes and then I can comment on what you said.
It would be nice though if you could provide the explanation for each quadrant in the same way you did it for the Originals quadrant. I hope that will help the discussion. _________________
Добавлено: Ср Авг 22, 2007 9:56 am Заголовок сообщения:
Ok, I did have a look in my notes and I think understood where is the problem. I will give you my critics just as a kick for discussion.
The model A does not correspond to the Reinin dichotomies (RD). People usually rely either on the model or on the RD. You have based your model on the model A and one of the RD (negativity- positivity). Somehow you decided that one particular RD (+-) is the more imporatnt than the model itself and drew your own conclusions about the differences between the quadrants. Therefore I need to ask the questions:
1. Why did you put so much emphasis on this particular dichotomy?
2. I did have a proper look and realized that LII, ILE have got - Se but EIE and IEI have got actually +Se. Please, double check because I do not always trust what I see.
Anyway, no matter what exactly the sign of the function is, the analysis of the functions suggest that all "the originals" have got actually a weak Se because Se is either in Superego or Superid blocks. I assume that people can develop or fill in their functions in Superego block because it is a mental or conscious block but Superid block is the most weak block in a psychic structure and considers to be in a vital or subconscious block. That means that these people are potentially weak in overthrowing the authority.
3 If we also consider the information about the quadral values of "the originals" we also see the contradiction with your conclusion. EIE and IEI belong to Beta quadra which has got the strongest drive for authority. EIE and IEI support the authority and are happy to use it to become authoritive themselves. That is why they belong to authoritive types like LSI and SLE. But does it really mean that EIE and IEI want to overthrow the authority while they admire it?
LII and ILE are not interested much in authority because all what they need is freedom and space for their creative work - they would rather avoid confrontation whenever possible. To overthrow the authority you have to be strong on Se. This is exactly what the quadras tell us: to overthrow Beta can only Gamma because Gamma also have got strong Se but with a very different agenda Fi which means a different attitude about what the proper authority should be.
This is the theory and in practice, of course, we have got lots of different life examples and "heros" from different quadras. However, here we discuss the theory and it has to make sense to be accepted as valid for majority of cases in order to be more or less objective. _________________
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subtype.
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